Revision as of 15:16, 22 July 2021 view source Dvdmandt (talk \| contribs) 12 edits No edit summary Tag: Visual edit ← Older edit		Revision as of 04:59, 2 January 2022 view source MrJakobLaich (talk \| contribs) 17 edits Added my own ideas Tag: Visual edit Newer edit →
Line 129: Pollution should be less local than currently. At the moment, it's basically chunk-local until you reach absurd levels. It needs to do a better job at covering a "base". (implementation detail) My proposal is to move the pollution data storage and processing out of the chunk and into a new much coarser grid structure, maybe 4x4 chunks or coarser. Ideally I'd even like a hex grid just to spread it in more of a circular shape, but the annoyance of working with hexagons might just not be worth it. The idea is to be able to work with this grid without loading as many chunks and to need less processing. Things like getPollutionInChunk() etc could be forwarded to lookup the value in the new structure instead of its own data. ---- == MrJakobLaich == <details> <summary>Insanely long 7 pages on my browser text wall Little rundown / TL;DR: - Pollution fills way too fast before you get to HV and make the nanosuit, make it appear slower, the pack is very long and you have enough time to suffer - Hazmat suit sucks (A LOT), add one more hazmat suit before nanosuit, remove repair recipe, buff hazmat suit durability and instead use the thaumcraft restorer to repair them - Add air respirators, which are put into the galacticcraft slots, which make breathing with the hazmat suit possible (you don't breath inside a plastic bag afterall) or add filtering gadgets for the suit - Change the different effects the player experiences from pollution so you first notice "a problem" and have enough time to put on a suit, later on, because of massive pollution, it becomes a much bigger problem to run around unprotected - All flowers should turn into dead bushes - Vegetation / in-world effects should "use up" some off the pollution (dying leaves on a tree for example, they take some pollution away) - Pollution per chunk sucks. Two solutions: 1. Make "above-ground (can see the sky)"-pollution not chunk wise but 8x8 "block" of chunks (so 128x128 normal blocks) 2. Make "below-ground (is inside a sealed cave"-pollution stay sealed down there, afterall that stuff down there has no access to the outside. Bombcar says: > You’re trying to solve the same problem as the oxygen on space station > And likely the “flooding” code from hydrodam is the way to do it Anyways, that's the recap, have fun reading all the stuff about it :) </summary> Regarding QOTD ("Questions of the day: Why do we need pollution? What good does it do?") Pollution feels cool because it's more realistic than "hehe just power the machine and don't worry" But right now it's just filling a chunk and giving you some annoying side effects (pretty fast from my experience too) Also, the hazmat suit has way too little durability D: So a couple of ideas: 1) Make pollution appear slower, the pack goes on for a long time, no need to fill everything with pollution within days 2) Add 1 more hazmat suits so you don't have to repair the low tech hazmat suit 800 times because you fell 4 blocks and it breaks your boots or because you touched a steam pipe and it completely melts away your whole suit, you just make the better one with rubber / polyethylene in MV and in HV upgrade to nano anyways Also, repairing the hazmat suit is currently more annoying than just making a new one, kinda weird So, you have the refined glue suit, low durability but better than nothing Advanced hazmat suit makes sense but is kind of meh to make (annoying recipe for something that everyone's basically forced this much to use) and also can't be repaired AFAIK, needs to use an MV-circuit instead of an HV one, then the recipes would be okay Give it a bit more protection too, it's advanced afterall Polyethylene end-of-MV power hazmat suit with good durability and offering even a bit of protection (little less than iron would be okay imo, still bad compared to everything at that tier but better than the other hazmat suits) REASON for this: You have so much pollution that you are forced to wear the hazmat suits anyways so it's either extremely annoying because you have to repair them every 3 seconds (currently) and we buff the suit (or add higher tier suits) or we nerf the pollution, which is what I'll talk about next (remember, buff is most of the time better than nerf xD) Asked Alastor's Game (Fuel Force) (he's the magic person when I have any magic questions xD) And thaumic restorer could repair this stuff much easier than any crafting recipe so I'd say we remove the hazmat suit repair recipe and give the refined glue suit a bit more durability Restorer is MV, you just need ender eyes which can be traded for, but I'd prefer it if the ender eye recipe got some thaumcraft equivalent so people don't instantly see that you can get them in MV, normal recipe is HV afterall... (why?), if we keep the HV recipe nobody would ever even notice that the thaumcraft one even exists lol You get poly and then mid-end MV you use it to make some better hazmat suit and stay in your new skin until you get the nano suit 3) most of the effects that pollution give you currently are there to make you stop polluting, to put on your hazmat suit or start air filtering, see above what I think about them lol I currently have one chunk with 300k+ gibbl and going up at about 40 per second If the wiki is still correct then I had at least 750k at some point, which is a lot considering that that wasn't that long since 2.1.2 came out So, imo the pollution should go up a bit slower than it is right now, at least for LV machines (Yes, I know about air scrubbers but that's not the point right now, I'll maybe get to that too) Do steam BBF / coke ovens produce pollution?? The effect tiers should be changed, you should notice a change before you get f'ed up by it So, different tiers The first ones for noticing, shouldn't affect gameplay too much The second one for actually hampering gameplay, should make you seriously consider putting on the (mandatory...) hazmat suit, you still have some time before you can't anymore The third for breaking you if you haven't put on the suit The fourth "you die lol" when you somehow made it through the last tier without having a hazmat suit on Every tier should also add a randomly selected number of effects from (all) lower tiers of effects too Also, the lower the tier compared to the current pollution effect tier the higher the effect duration and effect level So, tier 3 could have 1 tier 3 effect and any tier 2 and any tier 1 effect too, good luck with that lol So, for example, t3 pollution levels could have poison 1 for 23s, slowness 2 for 40s, mining fatigue 2 for 35s, hunger 3 for 40s and weakness 3 for 30s T1 weakness (10-20s), hunger (5-10s), nausea (3s) T2 slowness (10-30s), mining fatigue (20s) T3 blindness (20-40s), poison (20-30s) T4 wither (random duration 40-120s, yeah 120 for people with many hearts :troll:, as I said, good luck with this) I'd add more effects to this but idk what Volatility or Ill Fitting do so I can't really use them for this :shrug: Also, I'd add some warp effects too, like the one that makes the screen completely dark instead of just the blindness debuff, then I could add more tiers for pollution, which would be nice Before I do the vegetation and world effects, I'll list some warp effects that would make a bit of sense from what they sound like, maybe we could add some to the pollution stuff Insomnia, but make it say "You cough yourself awake" or something like that, probably T2 or T3 Thunderstorm, you ruined the environment T3 or T4 Whatever gives you the completely dark screen warp effect, put that into T3 instead of blindness and put blindness (10-20s) into T2 Huh, that's it lol, there's not much more there that looks good imo Regarding gadgets, GC slots and stuff like that We could add some air tank you have to use, afterall you can't really breath inside a plastic bag, so why should you be able to inside a hazmat suit without air tanks We could add some low tech breathing equipment and stuff like that, different tiers of course, who doesn't like upgrading their stuff from time to time So, probably 4 tiers of breathing stuff until you can make the nano suit Put the hazmat suit on and it protects you from pollution stuff But when you put on the hazmat suit you slowly lose oxygen, same as when you are under water Put the breathing stuff into the gadget slot and you don't lose air Air capacity depends on breathing stuff tier, first tier works for 1h, second for 3h, third tier for 8h and fourth tier for 12h (anything less is bad because just the suit is already annoying enough) Refill them by crafting together with an (or multiple in case of higher tier ones) oxygen cell, shouldn't consume the empty cell I still don't have anything in the slots except for the holo glasses so the GC, witching gadgets from Alastor and tinkers should be fine, probably should use the gadgets or GC slots, probably gadgets ones, I'd not use tinkers because you maybe make the extra hearts things at some point so either GC or WG, I don't think both matter because when you make the GC space suit it should automatically do the oxygen thing anyways (same with the nano suit and everything else later on) so once you have that all you don't need it in the GC slot anyways So, putting stuff into the GalacticCraft slots should work until HV when you have to make the space suit, the GC slots aren't used until then and after that you shouldn't need the hazmat suit anymore because you have either the GC space suit or the nanosuit Bombcar says: "The real deal is pollution isn’t fun" This (see what bombcar says :P) is exactly what I'm trying to fix, the main issues I see are: 1) Pollution right now is only barebones, not really much to it except "let's bully people into using the hazmat suit and air scrubbers" 2) hazmat suit sucks, way too low durability so you have to repair it every 3 seconds, see top part of this message 3) yeah, it's annoying and that's it, only negative stuff that doesn't have much reason to it (Negative pollution, "very clean air" would also be interesting, will maybe get to writing about that at some point later) Alright, vegetation and whatever's gonna happen to your blocks I'll only write down what additional stuff we could do or what we could change I think most of the vegetation stuff is alright the way it is, just a few tweaks All flowers should turn into dead bushes, idk why they would drop as an item, if you plant stuff in pollution then that's on you anyways, that's why we have T1 and T2 as warnings, if you still have plants when you get to T2-T3 levels it's your fault Quick input regarding when what tier happens because I'd forget otherwise: (remember, pollution would happen a bit slower than currently, so 100k should happen a lot slower than instantly) T1 happens at 100k gibbl, that's the warning, so no big debuffs T2 happens at 300k, this is where you actually get annoyed and bullied by the game so you start using the hazmat constantly T3 happens at 750k, vegetation destruction happens at 600k, plants don't like bad air... (dead plants would also be a good warning for you if you somehow still haven't made a hazmat suit) T4 is at 1M gibbl, for now there's no tier above that T5 is probably around 1.25M - 1.5M gibbl (I don't yet know what could happen player wise beyond this point) Sour rain is at 900k gibbl Late game you probably have air filters running 24/7 Alright, back to plants All flowers should turn into dead bushes Cropsticks should become the "Dead Grass" item from "Biomes O' Plenty" and drop the cropstick If we want to break people we just switch the plant on the cropstick to weed, that'd be !FUN!, good luck if you don't notice that (you should, after all you get enough warnings) Alright, I don't have any plant ideas anymore, I'll add more when I figure something out Oh, yeah, also: When a tree grows it should remove some amount of pollution, when any vegetation thing happens it should remove some pollution So, if a flower gets turned into a bush it removes, made up number for now, 1k gibbl So if you plant enough trees early on it should reduce pollution by a bit, lowest tech air scrubber ANY pollution effect should reduce pollution by some amount, afterall it some reaction which uses pollution as a component It just shouldn't be an insane amount, just enough to reduce it by a bit if you have a tree farm for example On we go to biomes Biomes, I do remember someone talking about how pollution could change a biome into some wasteland and I really like the idea In T5 (gotta figure some stuff for this at some point) we could change water into wastewater and lava into stone, that'd be cool maybe Making water become wastewater and same with lava would break rock breakers (well, that's a good thing, because pollution shouldn't just have an effect on the player, but also machines and other stuff) Should also do stuff to animals, slowness, poison, wither, etc, they are alive after all Also, what I noticed is chunkwise pollution is a little bit small, maybe making it 8x8 chunks would be cooler, that way you don't have one 500k chunk and one 13k chunk next to each other, also make a generator 8² chunk only leak into the 8 8² chunks next to it and not any further, that way you get a 192x192 block of polluted chunks God, I really hope putting pollution into ungenerated chunks doesn't break the game LMAO If it would then, yeah, idk, having one chunk with 500k and one with 13k makes no sense, so maybe at least make it be 64x64 blocks instead of one chunk that stores pollution Pollution above ground should spread / go away way faster, because there's a LOT of space outside for stuff to disperse to Also, the main idea here: Pollution is everywhere in a chunk, even if I make a hole in the ground, put the machine inside and seal it, somehow the pollution is above ground D: Pollution inside a mountain should stay down there, that way you have a reason for the air scrubbers and all that, maybe even air vents and things like that I do realize that calculating some A route to the outside every few ticks is going to tank TPS by a massive amount but we could 1) spread it out over multiple ticks (we're kind of doing something like that for pollution already in the pollution controller) 2) make the route grid bigger, so instead of every block we only check every second block or some variation of this, but that could become a problem so I'd not recommend this at all 3) We take a faster but less precise A* algorithm? (has been about a year since I've looked into this stuff so I gotta read about that again) 4) idk, give me some better ideas We apparently just call if(block.getWorld().getHighestBlockYAt(block.getLocation()) == block.getBlockY()) for every block we come across while we check stuff (if there's a better way to check if any random block is "outside" then please tell me, because this is the best thing I could come up with :p) We could also limit the size of whatever cave we check to 100x100x40 blocks or something, at if we go above that we assume it's outside or something like that That way you could make a "cleanroom" for your plants (probably outside) and a "dirtyroom" with your machines (and a real cleanroom inside that lol) DISCORD discussion I had with bombcar after all this stuff: (I cut out all other discussions because they didn't really add anything that new to what I've had alreaady written up there) bombcar — heute um 04:56 Uhr The chunks now store pollution “underground” if you will So I think it can spread without chunk loads Same way oil works Also 500k next to 13k should balance out Dissipation may need tuning if that persists bombcar — heute um 04:59 Uhr You’re trying to solve the same problem As the oxygen on space station MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 04:59 Uhr Then I'm really for 8x8 chunk blocks for storing pollution and spreading to all 8 blocks around it, but not further Instead of using normal chunks, because this way most of your base would have kind of the same pollution level and not like it is now, have 300k here and not really any pollution 3 trees over in the next chunks bombcar — heute um 04:59 Uhr And likely the “flooding” code from hydrodam is the way to do it MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:00 Uhr Oh yeah that's a thing, I've never really used much of GC so I didn't remember xD MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:00 Uhr That sounds promising bombcar — heute um 05:00 Uhr Problem with anything like that is you can abuse the mechanics And separate by a chunk to get perfectly clean MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:01 Uhr What do you mean? bombcar — heute um 05:01 Uhr If you have a hell chunk And it will ONLy spred to the 8 around it And then stop You move two chunks away and you’re fine So you chunkload and remote control and ignore he pollution MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:02 Uhr Yeah but that's why I'd make it not chunk based but 8-chunks by 8-chunks So 128x128 blocks So you have an area of 384x 384 where it should equalize the pollution 24x24 chunks total bombcar — heute um 05:03 Uhr Yeah that’s closer to what we should have But I don’t know the spread rate Too slow and you get pollutiontowers Too fast and it dissipate who cares MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:04 Uhr Also, this way you could actually see pollution ruining your forests and stuff and it would take all machines into account MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:04 Uhr I'd play around and at some point it's gonna be good enough bombcar — heute um 05:04 Uhr I think this Could be interesting MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:05 Uhr That's why I said, it's not gonna dissipate into anything further than the next "chunkblock" bombcar — heute um 05:05 Uhr Make Polly debuffs not hit you for like 10m MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:05 Uhr So it's contained and if you produce too much it's still gonna fill the center block bombcar — heute um 05:05 Uhr Then build at chunk block borders Like@old sims Oct MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:05 Uhr polly? oh bombcar — heute um 05:05 Uhr Old SimCity MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:05 Uhr pollution bombcar — heute um 05:05 Uhr Pollution Here’s my idea MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:05 Uhr That's not gonna do much because it's a 128x128 border You'd have to make your base MASSIVE bombcar — heute um 05:06 Uhr If Polly doesn’t hit you until 10m@pr so You have a reason to build railroads MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:06 Uhr Like, so massive it's useless in MV bombcar — heute um 05:06 Uhr To your bbfs MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:06 Uhr Which is cool MrJakobLaich (HV) — heute um 05:06 Uhr oh yeah true but they'd have to be way less expensive You'd need an insane amount of stuff for that Also, we can change pollution limits, that's why I said, you should first notice small debuffs before it hits you with wither and stuff like that So you have time to adapt and fix stuff because otherwise your plants just vanish over a night In server chunkloading cases I'll add all this to the github message Good convo stuff bombcar — heute um 05:11 Uhr what we need really are userstories </details> Anyways, these are all my ideas regarding pollution and what I think would be cool, if you like or dislike something, please tell me what I could improve about it :)

Pollution revamp visions: Difference between revisions